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North West Datsun Enthusiasts Forum : Datsun : 510
Topic: Please help- l16 backfiring
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Noodles
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bullet Topic: Please help- l16 backfiring
    Posted: 05 December 2004 at 9:37pm
  Please help.  My 72 510 has been a headache since I bought it two months ago.  When I first got it, it had a blown headgasket and would barely run. It had been  sitting for a couple months. So I proceed to have the head resurfaced, replaced valve seals&guides, replaced timing set and water pump and all gaskets.  Got the car to run and idle, but it would pop and backfire through the carb when given gas. I thought for sure it was a carb  problem so I got a new one. I put a new weber 38/38 on it with a new filter and regulator. Also added a new pcv valve,plugs, wires, cap, rotor points and condenser. Still with this goddamned backfiring. Idle is good though slightly rough. I can really slowly rev it up and get it past slightly off idle where it back fires. Then it seems to rev freely after that with an intermittent backfire here and there but feels strong. Backfires also if I just stab the pedal. Can't drive it though because it backfires as soon as I put a load on it. Funny, also my 70 pl521 pickup is now doing the same thing after sitting for a month or so. I will try to run some good fuel straight out of a can but I somehow don't think it's bad gas. Any ideas?
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datsunaholic
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bullet Posted: 05 December 2004 at 9:45pm
How much was the head shaved? I'd say the valve timing is off, or just timed too far advanced. Stomping the pedal cuts vacuum, causing it to fully advance so "Pop". Time it with the vacuum advance disconnected.
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Hainz
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bullet Posted: 05 December 2004 at 10:23pm
Noodles,
This is a simple car!
Is the points and condensor OK if stillusing them.
If dual points ? Use only the main one and unplug the second set of points. Make sure condensor is good or grounded.
IF electric ignition. I think your OK. Did you replace a coil with another type or something while this was down? Hopefully NOT.

YOu time or Cam correctly? Maybe its off a tooth.
Set motor to #1 compression stroke. Cam dowel set right and use the bright links on chain set to the dimple on tha cam sprocket and lower sprocket.?

Did you use cam tower shims if head was milled a big about. If only 5 thou I wouldnt worry about it.

A 38/38 Weber on what size motor? Might be to much if a stock L16. But I think should still be OK.

Ck dist shaft wiggle. See if its enough to open the points(if bearing worn) If you still use points.

adjust timming to like 10deg BTDC with a light, maybe thats all that is needed
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Noodles
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bullet Posted: 06 December 2004 at 9:06pm
well,i checked fuel today and found that's not my problem. I have triple checked and re checked again cam timing, dist. timing and valve lash. All seem ok. The head had been previously milled so it's gettin' thin. But I have the cam timing set on #3 and it lines up with the notch just to the right of the oblong grove on the locater plate on the head. This shows ok cam timing. I am running a single points distributer, new points & condenser. Points adjusted right. I do question whether or not the mechanical advance in the dist. is working. That may be my next target area. ign. coil is stock. Weird that it idles good and only pops on load. Also I checked to make sure the accel. pump nozzles were not clogged and thats ok. I'm gettin real frustrated.helphelp.
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Hainz
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bullet Posted: 06 December 2004 at 11:31pm
Sounds like your motor is timmed correctly.
I have had a dist go bad by the bushing wear. The dist shaft would wiggle enough to open the points itself. It would pop.
I also had a condensor go bad also. Lots of back fireing(blew up a muffler)
I also put aanother dist in from a L18 which had a different mount not knowing you need to use the correct mount. It would idle but give it gas it would cut out. Figured it was to far advanced. But correct mount and timmed it using a light fixed that.

also water under the distributor cap will cause back firing and missing.

also I had a dual point dist go bad. I took it out and it was really rough turning it. I think the weights fell off or the springs cam loose. Maybe pull it out and see if it turns ok. Just pull that 10mm head bolt at the timming plate.

Another thing is you still have your ballast resistor(white ceramic block) in place and no changes to the wiring. Sometimes people pull them out for what ever reason. If not installed the points will fry and coil get HOT.


PS the machinst who machine the head should know if the head was milled alot, should have installed head saver shims under the cam towers. I have 2 .015=.030 milled under my towers. IF not Bitch slap him !!!

this is a long shot but make sure your car is charging and getting the right voltage.

if you have a L16 single point distributor(small cap) 68-69 I went with the Pertronix conversion#1741. Best 70$ ever spent. Throw them points in a Museum! But you did say you have a 72. which is a dual point car. So is this really a single point L20(big cap) dist? Sometime people grap dists from cars and forget the mount then get another mount for the dist to bolt to. The L20s had 2 mounts which could work maybe at idle but if it speeds up.

I think your getting close here keep trying. Maybe put a timming light on there and slowly rev it up. Maybe the timming is boucing around then maybe see it on the crank with the light(timming marks)
also dont bolt the distributor mount own at all then adjust the dist and rev it up and see if loads up.
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Noodles
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bullet Posted: 08 December 2004 at 12:04am
Thank you for the brainstorming hainz. You are correct, the car originally had a dual point dist. like most had. The previous(and original)owner had swapped it out at some point for the single point dist. which was said to be from a 610 I think. I did not know of the different mounts though. Is that the lowest part mounted with the single 8mm head bolt? My good friend has an L16 with single point dist. which is different than mine. I will be able to test with that one this weekend I think. That was my thought, that something went wrong with the centrifugal advance or adjacent parts inside dist. housing. The coil/resistor setup is stock. I have a pertronix 40k hot coil w/internal resistor, but i'm waiting to get an ignitor setup before installing. Yes, I've had pertronix ignitors in more than one car and I do praise their name always. Good stuff. Good call on checking dynamic timing too. I'll try that next. I'll keep youall posted. thanks,thanks again.    --  Noah
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Hainz
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bullet Posted: 08 December 2004 at 8:52am
Noah,
The mount is right under the dist. its has 2 bolts the bolt down to the front cover.
That 8mm bolt under the dist is the dist plate adjustment. You could loosen that and move it around to get more timming adjustment.
Then there is the 10mm bolt that will hold the dist plate to the mount.

What you need to do si time the car to like 10deg BTDC. See where the dist timming plate position is. If it at one end or the other and have no more movement. Then maybe as it revs up its goin out of timming.

also be careful when installing another dist if slightly different. Make sure to insatll as a set unless it exactly the same dist. Over the years some get rebuilt with the dist rotor off 180 degs. So take note the position of the rotor when removing and installing. You can move the spark plug wires 180degs

If need more help send email address and some dig photos
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Noodles
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bullet Posted: 10 December 2004 at 9:55pm
OK, weird. I tried swapping in my friend's dist. from his 510 and no change. I tried checking timing when revved but the light would cut out on and off intermittently. The light works fine on my other cars. Maybe a poor signal from dist.?? I'm curious about my coil and resistor still. Do you know exactly what the resistance and voltages should be? I measured battery voltage on input to resistor and then only drops to 10volts after resistor, then measured 7volts to dist. Resistor is measured at 1.4 ohms. Does this all sound right? Should I have more resistance and less voltage?
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bullet Posted: 12 December 2004 at 3:26pm
So I put the old cam gear back on today because it had better marks than the new aftermarket one. Now the notch on the gear is closer the left side of the groove on the cam plate. I think maybe I just have barely too much slack and thats my problem. Could i install cam tower shims with the head on the car? maybe i could fix it
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bullet Posted: 12 December 2004 at 6:34pm
The 510 coil is 1.6 ohms and the ballast is also 1.6 ohms on a stock set up. So depaending on quality of meter sounds OK. This is in the Hayned manual get one

You timming was OK before with the V notch ON or a c**t hair right of the DASH on timming plate.

Make sure your carb adapter
is not cracked or air going thru. but sounds ok other wise you wouldnt idle.

plug wires in the correct fire order 1342?
wires GOOD?

Your cam sound retarted now if the v notch is left of the dash. With a new chain and set to #3 even if the cam shims werent installed sounds like it was ok. Cause you said the marks were in the correct spot. So it was timmed.

A long time ago i had a Weber DGV that was plugged in the main barrel (a tiny rock). it would idle ok but off idle would die. I pulled the choke and ran home using the second barrel of the carb. Since DGVs have a mech secondary.

This is a simple fix. If cam is timmed then its electrical or carb

You know is the oil pump dist shaft in the correct location when its TDC? If off a tooth it migh run if dist is cranked enough to one side of the timming plate. But if you removed the 10mm hold bolt and just move it with your hand holding it while adjust ing and giving it gas you might detect a proplem. But since your cam timming sounds retarted now I would get back to were you were.
PM me(email address) and I can send a photo of a timmed oil pump/dist shaft.

i would NOT put the head saver/cam shims in now. Its a little late. Best to do it on the bench and spin the cam around w/o the rockers so you know it cam spins freely
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Noodles
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bullet Posted: 12 December 2004 at 7:02pm
Well I see what you're saying but I think electrical and carb are good. Now I've realized that the cam notch is almost competely to the left of the oblong groove on the head plate. Even set on #3 because head is milled so much. I was thinking I could just move the cam and gear one tooth over to make the notch line up to the right of the groove but then i would be going even more advanced on the cam timing. I think its overadvanced as it is having the notch lined up almost to the left set on 3. Or I could move the cam and gear back a tooth but then that would move the notch even furthur to the left of the groove. Sorry if that's confusing. What do you think?
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Hainz
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bullet Posted: 12 December 2004 at 9:41pm
you know the cam position it needs to be in.
The V notch in line with the dash.

L20s came from the factory in the #2 position.

If you want cam tower shims you should remove the head and take out the cam and rockers. install the shims that you need.(how much was shaved?)Rockes in the sae lobe as before on cam

More or less YOU need to do the whole top end again and start from the beggining. YOu dont know if the chain tensiner maybe popped off.

You have a new timming set . It should be spot on or slightly advanced if anything. If you coundnt get the marks lined up on #3 then you have to get the shims for shure.
The sprocket positions are for wear or chain stretch.
Or performance cam people use the higher #s to get the power on sooner. #2 or #3.

IS Your condensor good ,grounded?

This is a Ez fix.
If a Man cant fix a 510 then he isnt a Man.

Lets not see another 510 in a back yard hopefully

PM your address and Ill show a timmed cam tommorrow
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Hainz
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bullet Posted: 12 December 2004 at 10:28pm
YOu know even if its off abit I dont think it would backfire alot. I seen when not adv enough it wouldnt have power(off one or 2 teeth)

PS while setting up TDC on can ck your dist shaft location I will send a photo tommorrow.
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bullet Posted: 14 December 2004 at 8:15pm

FIXED!

  yes, i'm psyched! Finally figured this thing out. All along i thought it  would be something simple, and that's exactly what it was. I am fairly new to working on Datsuns so cut me some slack. It turns out i had put the spark plug wires in a clockwise set up on the distributer cap. Now i come to realize that datsuns are different from what i'm used to and the distributer spins in a counter-clockwise direction. So actually #1 and #4 wires were in the right spots but the 2 and 3 wires were swapped. I am surprised that it ran ok with the wires like that. but i now see how much better it runs with the wires in the right location. Can't wait to really dial this thing in and have some fun! I'll keep you updated

  --  Noah

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